Comments on: The perils of studying the Qing http://granitestudio.org/2008/10/08/the-perils-of-studying-the-qing/ A Qing historian reads the newspaper... Sat, 02 Jul 2011 03:31:06 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Jeremiah http://granitestudio.org/2008/10/08/the-perils-of-studying-the-qing/comment-page-1/#comment-10064 Jeremiah Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:37:17 +0000 http://granitestudio.org/?p=575#comment-10064 It really depends on how you define "Chinese," keeping in mind that such terms are historically unstable, we can't project back modern definitions without running into complications. I also think, hug, that you and I are coming at this from differing intellectual perspectives. You want Manchu=Chinese. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, only that the way such an equation is formulated, the narratives which frame it, and the sources which support it are all unstable and need to be unpacked and looked at carefully and critically. We cannot accept tropes as truth. I know where you're coming from, though, I'm familiar with the Chinese history curriculum of the past 20 years, and also have done a bit of research on the creation of historical narrative and nationalism in the early 20th century. Paul Cohen once suggested such narratives tell us more about the political and emotional needs of the present day than they do about the past, and I would tend to agree. It really depends on how you define “Chinese,” keeping in mind that such terms are historically unstable, we can’t project back modern definitions without running into complications. I also think, hug, that you and I are coming at this from differing intellectual perspectives. You want Manchu=Chinese. I’m not saying you’re necessarily wrong, only that the way such an equation is formulated, the narratives which frame it, and the sources which support it are all unstable and need to be unpacked and looked at carefully and critically. We cannot accept tropes as truth. I know where you’re coming from, though, I’m familiar with the Chinese history curriculum of the past 20 years, and also have done a bit of research on the creation of historical narrative and nationalism in the early 20th century. Paul Cohen once suggested such narratives tell us more about the political and emotional needs of the present day than they do about the past, and I would tend to agree.

]]> By: hug http://granitestudio.org/2008/10/08/the-perils-of-studying-the-qing/comment-page-1/#comment-10063 hug Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:47:29 +0000 http://granitestudio.org/?p=575#comment-10063 Nobody has ever claimed the Manchus are Han. But I am sure the Manchus are Chinese. Similarly, The whites in USA are americans, but the americans are not equal to the white. Nobody has ever claimed the Manchus are Han. But I am sure the Manchus are Chinese. Similarly, The whites in USA are americans, but the americans are not equal to the white.

]]> By: Jeremiah http://granitestudio.org/2008/10/08/the-perils-of-studying-the-qing/comment-page-1/#comment-10062 Jeremiah Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:37:59 +0000 http://granitestudio.org/?p=575#comment-10062 hug, Thanks for stopping by...a little late to the party, though. It's a lot more complicated than you've suggested and I find it quaint that you'd comment so blithely. I think you might find it interesting to check out actual books (rather than wikipedia) and I might especially recommend looking at the recent (as in the last 30 years or so) research done using the Manchu language archives. Work by Mark Elliot, James Millward, etc. greatly problematizes the simplistic narratives (products of early 20th century Han nationalist historians) of assimilation. hug,

Thanks for stopping by…a little late to the party, though.

It’s a lot more complicated than you’ve suggested and I find it quaint that you’d comment so blithely. I think you might find it interesting to check out actual books (rather than wikipedia) and I might especially recommend looking at the recent (as in the last 30 years or so) research done using the Manchu language archives. Work by Mark Elliot, James Millward, etc. greatly problematizes the simplistic narratives (products of early 20th century Han nationalist historians) of assimilation.

]]> By: hug http://granitestudio.org/2008/10/08/the-perils-of-studying-the-qing/comment-page-1/#comment-10060 hug Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:35:20 +0000 http://granitestudio.org/?p=575#comment-10060 FYI：Sun Zhongshan changed his attitude to Five Races Under One Union((Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui and Tibetan). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhonghua_Minzu FYI：Sun Zhongshan changed his attitude to Five Races Under One Union((Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui and Tibetan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhonghua_Minzu

]]> By: hug http://granitestudio.org/2008/10/08/the-perils-of-studying-the-qing/comment-page-1/#comment-10058 hug Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:26:44 +0000 http://granitestudio.org/?p=575#comment-10058 Guys, see some unequal treaties between Qing gov and foreign powers. The Qing emproers thought they were Chinese. They used the words like “Zhongguo”, “Zhongguoren”. Please Check. http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%8D%97%E4%BA%AC%E6%9D%A1%E7%BA%A6&variant=zh-tw http://www.ydjh.chc.edu.tw/society/history/historyimage/8.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_for_the_Extension_of_Hong_Kong_Territory Guys, see some unequal treaties between Qing gov and foreign powers. The Qing emproers thought they were Chinese. They used the words like “Zhongguo”, “Zhongguoren”. Please Check.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E5%8D%97%E4%BA%AC%E6%9D%A1%E7%BA%A6&variant=zh-tw

http://www.ydjh.chc.edu.tw/society/history/historyimage/8.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_for_the_Extension_of_Hong_Kong_Territory

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