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	<title>Comments on: Bad History: Qianlong, Xinjiang, and Western Aesthetics</title>
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	<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/04/01/bad-history-qianlong-xinjiang-and-western-aesthetics/</link>
	<description>A Qing historian reads the newspaper...</description>
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		<title>By: david0fsangabriel</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/04/01/bad-history-qianlong-xinjiang-and-western-aesthetics/comment-page-1/#comment-11978</link>
		<dc:creator>david0fsangabriel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1041#comment-11978</guid>
		<description>@ fengjunzi:

&quot;Weren’t the Buddhist Uyghurs actual a different group of people? I thought that using the term Uyghur to refer the current people in Xinjiang was actually a relatively recent phenomenon. The name was taken from the Buddhist Uyghurs who did indeed occupy the rim of the Taklamakan Desert, but they were a different group of people than the Central Asians who are now known as Uyghurs, right?&quot;

Trying to figure out the relation between the&quot;original peoples&quot; of western and southern China and the peoples who occupy those territories now is a nightmare...I do believe, however, that the original inhabitants of Xinjiang were tartan-wearing blond-haired Celts who spoke with a Scottish brogue. &quot;An&#039; where ma&#039; be tha&#039; bonnie loch o&#039; Lop Nur,  ma lassie?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ fengjunzi:</p>
<p>&#8220;Weren’t the Buddhist Uyghurs actual a different group of people? I thought that using the term Uyghur to refer the current people in Xinjiang was actually a relatively recent phenomenon. The name was taken from the Buddhist Uyghurs who did indeed occupy the rim of the Taklamakan Desert, but they were a different group of people than the Central Asians who are now known as Uyghurs, right?&#8221;</p>
<p>Trying to figure out the relation between the&#8221;original peoples&#8221; of western and southern China and the peoples who occupy those territories now is a nightmare&#8230;I do believe, however, that the original inhabitants of Xinjiang were tartan-wearing blond-haired Celts who spoke with a Scottish brogue. &#8220;An&#8217; where ma&#8217; be tha&#8217; bonnie loch o&#8217; Lop Nur,  ma lassie?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Cao Meng De</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/04/01/bad-history-qianlong-xinjiang-and-western-aesthetics/comment-page-1/#comment-11977</link>
		<dc:creator>Cao Meng De</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:10:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Stalin started the modern designation of &quot;Uyghur&quot; which was later adopted by PRC.

After the collapse of the Uyghur empire in 9th century, Uyghur tribes of Mongolia scattered to Gansu, Xinjiang and West Turkistan. 

Eastern  Uyghur of Gansu and Turfan became Buddhists. Yugor or &quot;yellow Uyghurs&quot; of today are descended from Uyghurs of Gansu. Western branch of Uyghur migration founded Karakhanids and converted to Islam. For a while, &quot;Uyghur&quot; was a term reserved for Buddhist Uyghur of Turfan Kingdom. Buddhist Uyghur kingdom of Turfan remain Buddhist until almost the 15th century.

Modern Uyghurs are descendants of conquering Turko-Mongol tribes (including ancient Uyghurs) and conquered oasis-dwellers. Y-chromosome mapping of modern Uyghurs are quite telling regarding their patrilineal descend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stalin started the modern designation of &#8220;Uyghur&#8221; which was later adopted by PRC.</p>
<p>After the collapse of the Uyghur empire in 9th century, Uyghur tribes of Mongolia scattered to Gansu, Xinjiang and West Turkistan. </p>
<p>Eastern  Uyghur of Gansu and Turfan became Buddhists. Yugor or &#8220;yellow Uyghurs&#8221; of today are descended from Uyghurs of Gansu. Western branch of Uyghur migration founded Karakhanids and converted to Islam. For a while, &#8220;Uyghur&#8221; was a term reserved for Buddhist Uyghur of Turfan Kingdom. Buddhist Uyghur kingdom of Turfan remain Buddhist until almost the 15th century.</p>
<p>Modern Uyghurs are descendants of conquering Turko-Mongol tribes (including ancient Uyghurs) and conquered oasis-dwellers. Y-chromosome mapping of modern Uyghurs are quite telling regarding their patrilineal descend.</p>
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		<title>By: brosna</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/04/01/bad-history-qianlong-xinjiang-and-western-aesthetics/comment-page-1/#comment-11975</link>
		<dc:creator>brosna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 12:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1041#comment-11975</guid>
		<description>Here&#039;s a clue: Jesuits. From the late sisteenth century, the Society of Jesus managed to install a small number of its highly educated members at court as experts on astronomy, mechanics, music, painting etc. Their strategy was generally to assimilate into Chinese society, so I think their influence was hardly a &quot;massive intrusion&quot;. 

At the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin, I have seen large copperplate battle scenes designed for the Qianlong Emperor by his European Jesuit court artists. (They are gorgeous.)  The Library describes one of them thus:
http://www.cbl.ie/cbl_image_gallery/image.asp?ID=135&amp;Collection=&amp;ImageNumber=T0004174
Battle Scene
The Conquests of the Qianlong Emperor
Jean Philippe Le Bas
1769, France
C 1601
Commentary:
Copperplate engraving on paper by Jean Philippe Le Bas after a painting by Giuseppe Castiglione. This battle scene is a proof plate for a set of sixteen engravings commissioned in 1765 by the Qianlong Emperor (r.1736-95) to commemorate his conquests of huge tracts of foreign territory. Resident Jesuit artists at the Chinese court were instructed to prepare the drawings, which were then sent to the workshop of the famous engraver Charles-Nicolas in Paris. The Chester Beatty Library has a complete set of engravings and four proof plates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a clue: Jesuits. From the late sisteenth century, the Society of Jesus managed to install a small number of its highly educated members at court as experts on astronomy, mechanics, music, painting etc. Their strategy was generally to assimilate into Chinese society, so I think their influence was hardly a &#8220;massive intrusion&#8221;. </p>
<p>At the Chester Beatty Library in Dublin, I have seen large copperplate battle scenes designed for the Qianlong Emperor by his European Jesuit court artists. (They are gorgeous.)  The Library describes one of them thus:<br />
<a href="http://www.cbl.ie/cbl_image_gallery/image.asp?ID=135&#038;Collection=&#038;ImageNumber=T0004174" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbl.ie/cbl_image_gallery/image.asp?ID=135&#038;Collection=&#038;ImageNumber=T0004174</a><br />
Battle Scene<br />
The Conquests of the Qianlong Emperor<br />
Jean Philippe Le Bas<br />
1769, France<br />
C 1601<br />
Commentary:<br />
Copperplate engraving on paper by Jean Philippe Le Bas after a painting by Giuseppe Castiglione. This battle scene is a proof plate for a set of sixteen engravings commissioned in 1765 by the Qianlong Emperor (r.1736-95) to commemorate his conquests of huge tracts of foreign territory. Resident Jesuit artists at the Chinese court were instructed to prepare the drawings, which were then sent to the workshop of the famous engraver Charles-Nicolas in Paris. The Chester Beatty Library has a complete set of engravings and four proof plates.</p>
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		<title>By: blevitt</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/04/01/bad-history-qianlong-xinjiang-and-western-aesthetics/comment-page-1/#comment-11965</link>
		<dc:creator>blevitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 10:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1041#comment-11965</guid>
		<description>&quot;Invading foreign lands is alien to the authentic Chinese tradition, molded by Confucianism, which does not hold the military in high esteem.&quot;
***
Here is a book about the inauthentic military tradition of the Chinese people:
Military Culture in Imperial China 
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/DICMIL.html

&quot;The book critically investigates the perception that, due to the influence of Confucianism, Chinese culture has systematically devalued military matters. There was nothing inherently pacifist about the Chinese governments’ views of war, and pragmatic approaches—even aggressive and expansionist projects—often prevailed.&quot;
***
Also, after reading the introduction, I was tipped off to this UChicago educated Republican Era Chinese history prof, Lei Haizong (雷海宗).  He wrote influential pieces (see list below) that attribute China&#039;s weakness to &quot;China&#039;s traditional culture&quot;, leaving us with the o-so-common meme that is transmitted once again by the author in this NYT piece. 
***
I watched the music video produced by the PLA art troupe once again (thanks to stuart for his link in the &quot;Ghost of Zheng He&quot; post)
http://tiny.cc/harmony355
Makes one do a double take at their WWCD bracelet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Invading foreign lands is alien to the authentic Chinese tradition, molded by Confucianism, which does not hold the military in high esteem.&#8221;<br />
***<br />
Here is a book about the inauthentic military tradition of the Chinese people:<br />
Military Culture in Imperial China<br />
<a href="http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/DICMIL.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/DICMIL.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;The book critically investigates the perception that, due to the influence of Confucianism, Chinese culture has systematically devalued military matters. There was nothing inherently pacifist about the Chinese governments’ views of war, and pragmatic approaches—even aggressive and expansionist projects—often prevailed.&#8221;<br />
***<br />
Also, after reading the introduction, I was tipped off to this UChicago educated Republican Era Chinese history prof, Lei Haizong (雷海宗).  He wrote influential pieces (see list below) that attribute China&#8217;s weakness to &#8220;China&#8217;s traditional culture&#8221;, leaving us with the o-so-common meme that is transmitted once again by the author in this NYT piece.<br />
***<br />
I watched the music video produced by the PLA art troupe once again (thanks to stuart for his link in the &#8220;Ghost of Zheng He&#8221; post)<br />
<a href="http://tiny.cc/harmony355" rel="nofollow">http://tiny.cc/harmony355</a><br />
Makes one do a double take at their WWCD bracelet.</p>
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		<title>By: AndyR</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/04/01/bad-history-qianlong-xinjiang-and-western-aesthetics/comment-page-1/#comment-11963</link>
		<dc:creator>AndyR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2009 04:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1041#comment-11963</guid>
		<description>&quot;…but that’s not my main problem, it’s the essentializing of Confucianism, where a poorly understood factoid from the Confucian tradition is declared an inherent characteristic of all China at all times because, you know, Confucius was Chinese and, uh, the Chinese are real traditional, like.&quot;

This constantly goes on in American college classroom discussions, one of my pet peeves is someone trying explain Chinese behavior be it political, economic, or social-especially modern behavior-as if it all stems from a random Confucian maxim... because as you say &quot;Chinese are like traditional&quot;...thanks for pointing this out, and I wish more people were called on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;…but that’s not my main problem, it’s the essentializing of Confucianism, where a poorly understood factoid from the Confucian tradition is declared an inherent characteristic of all China at all times because, you know, Confucius was Chinese and, uh, the Chinese are real traditional, like.&#8221;</p>
<p>This constantly goes on in American college classroom discussions, one of my pet peeves is someone trying explain Chinese behavior be it political, economic, or social-especially modern behavior-as if it all stems from a random Confucian maxim&#8230; because as you say &#8220;Chinese are like traditional&#8221;&#8230;thanks for pointing this out, and I wish more people were called on it.</p>
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