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	<title>Comments on: List of possible embarrassing revelations in Ζhao Ζiyang Memoirs due out this summer</title>
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	<description>A Qing historian reads the newspaper...</description>
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		<title>By: What can you publish in China? &#124; The Blacksmith blog</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12224</link>
		<dc:creator>What can you publish in China? &#124; The Blacksmith blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 18:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12224</guid>
		<description>[...] by the Great Firewall, as discussed on Danwei. But go to the Granite Studio for a list of possible revelations from Zhao&#8217;s diaries.   var addthis_pub = &#039;blacksmithbooks&#039;; var addthis_language = &#039;en&#039;;var addthis_options = &#039;email, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] by the Great Firewall, as discussed on Danwei. But go to the Granite Studio for a list of possible revelations from Zhao&#8217;s diaries.   var addthis_pub = &#8216;blacksmithbooks&#8217;; var addthis_language = &#8216;en&#8217;;var addthis_options = &#8216;email, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12219</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 22:16:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12219</guid>
		<description>&quot;soft suppression&quot; versus &quot;a tank.&quot;  Either way, kind of sucks, though I&#039;ll let readers decide which would suck worse.  Viva la world revolution!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;soft suppression&#8221; versus &#8220;a tank.&#8221;  Either way, kind of sucks, though I&#8217;ll let readers decide which would suck worse.  Viva la world revolution!</p>
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		<title>By: rickpetes</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12217</link>
		<dc:creator>rickpetes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 20:30:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12217</guid>
		<description>Jeremiah, your point is well taken.  I didn&#039;t express myself well.  I truly should have stopped with&quot;...we are better at managing the masses without the masses knowing there are being managed, and hence less need to put down unrest...&quot;.

We are allowed to argue in the open, disagree with the government, and debate almost any issue.  This is because the corporatist oligarchy which runs our country knows that they can get us to be happy debating stupid issues like abortion and gay marriage, and will never actually challenge them on anything of true substance, at least not in numbers that would effect the power structure.  Noam Chomsky can write and say whatever he wants because they know the masses aren&#039;t paying any attention.  We have kept the masses too stupid and ignorant for them to understand the &#039;real&#039; issues and keep them distracted with non-issues.   Besides, what do the elites have to be concerned about when more voters are focused on &quot;American Idol&quot; and who Angelina Jolie is supposedly screwing than on issues of social and economic importance that actually affects their lives?

Let&#039;s call it &quot;soft suppression&quot;...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremiah, your point is well taken.  I didn&#8217;t express myself well.  I truly should have stopped with&#8221;&#8230;we are better at managing the masses without the masses knowing there are being managed, and hence less need to put down unrest&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
<p>We are allowed to argue in the open, disagree with the government, and debate almost any issue.  This is because the corporatist oligarchy which runs our country knows that they can get us to be happy debating stupid issues like abortion and gay marriage, and will never actually challenge them on anything of true substance, at least not in numbers that would effect the power structure.  Noam Chomsky can write and say whatever he wants because they know the masses aren&#8217;t paying any attention.  We have kept the masses too stupid and ignorant for them to understand the &#8216;real&#8217; issues and keep them distracted with non-issues.   Besides, what do the elites have to be concerned about when more voters are focused on &#8220;American Idol&#8221; and who Angelina Jolie is supposedly screwing than on issues of social and economic importance that actually affects their lives?</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s call it &#8220;soft suppression&#8221;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12212</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 23:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12212</guid>
		<description>Pete,

Governments always want to suppress information, it&#039;s one reason so many people worked to pass the Freedom of Information Act in the United States.  And as a historian, I could not agree with you more that the US needs to do a better job at opening up its archives.  I have several colleagues in my grad department who work on these topics, and have been active in the push for greater access.

But this discussion is not about release of documents, it&#039;s about the suppression of debate.  These are two very different things.

You and I can go on television or stand in the public square and argue as long and as loud as we want about whether these documents should be released, was there torture in the black jails, or any range of subjects from today or yesterday including, for example, the use of illegal and violent means to suppress the labor, peace and civil rights movements of the 20th century.  In the PRC, it is the debate itself, the open discussion of multiple perspectives, particularly on sensitive topics such as 6-4, that is for all intents and purposes verboten.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete,</p>
<p>Governments always want to suppress information, it&#8217;s one reason so many people worked to pass the Freedom of Information Act in the United States.  And as a historian, I could not agree with you more that the US needs to do a better job at opening up its archives.  I have several colleagues in my grad department who work on these topics, and have been active in the push for greater access.</p>
<p>But this discussion is not about release of documents, it&#8217;s about the suppression of debate.  These are two very different things.</p>
<p>You and I can go on television or stand in the public square and argue as long and as loud as we want about whether these documents should be released, was there torture in the black jails, or any range of subjects from today or yesterday including, for example, the use of illegal and violent means to suppress the labor, peace and civil rights movements of the 20th century.  In the PRC, it is the debate itself, the open discussion of multiple perspectives, particularly on sensitive topics such as 6-4, that is for all intents and purposes verboten.</p>
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		<title>By: rickpetes</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12211</link>
		<dc:creator>rickpetes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 20:24:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12211</guid>
		<description>Fascinating here debate today.  Jeremiah, I largely agree with you.  Sadly, in the US, we&#039;re having almost the exact debate.  Should we investigate the Bush administration&#039;s (mis)handling of, well, almost everything.   

And, then there are all those files, some going back to the &#039;40s, that are under lock and seal in the US archives (or destroyed), because they are too sensitive to be released.  I&#039;ll bet most of it is locked away because it would embarrass elite families or worse.  I think the difference between the US and other governments is that the US manages appearances better - we&#039;re better at propaganda and hiding the true degree to which our institutions have largely been captured by corporations and elite interests.  

In effect, we are better at managing the masses without the masses knowing there are being managed, and hence less need to put down unrest, albeit with exceptions such as the early labor movement and the &#039;60s.  Let me suggest looking at the wiki page on Edward Bernays and the 2002 documentary on his life.

Governments, seemingly everywhere, try to suppress information for the reasons you cited, plus the actors don&#039;t wish to pay the consequences for their acts.  I just think we do it better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating here debate today.  Jeremiah, I largely agree with you.  Sadly, in the US, we&#8217;re having almost the exact debate.  Should we investigate the Bush administration&#8217;s (mis)handling of, well, almost everything.   </p>
<p>And, then there are all those files, some going back to the &#8217;40s, that are under lock and seal in the US archives (or destroyed), because they are too sensitive to be released.  I&#8217;ll bet most of it is locked away because it would embarrass elite families or worse.  I think the difference between the US and other governments is that the US manages appearances better &#8211; we&#8217;re better at propaganda and hiding the true degree to which our institutions have largely been captured by corporations and elite interests.  </p>
<p>In effect, we are better at managing the masses without the masses knowing there are being managed, and hence less need to put down unrest, albeit with exceptions such as the early labor movement and the &#8217;60s.  Let me suggest looking at the wiki page on Edward Bernays and the 2002 documentary on his life.</p>
<p>Governments, seemingly everywhere, try to suppress information for the reasons you cited, plus the actors don&#8217;t wish to pay the consequences for their acts.  I just think we do it better.</p>
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		<title>By: shane9219</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12210</link>
		<dc:creator>shane9219</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 07:14:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12210</guid>
		<description>Not at all. Thanks for putting up your post. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not at all. Thanks for putting up your post.</p>
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		<title>By: shane9219</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12209</link>
		<dc:creator>shane9219</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 06:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12209</guid>
		<description>

&lt;strong&gt;Sorry Shane, I have a rule about keeping it civil.  If you want to rant at people there are plenty of sites available for you to do so. This is not one of them.  - The Management&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Sorry Shane, I have a rule about keeping it civil.  If you want to rant at people there are plenty of sites available for you to do so. This is not one of them.  &#8211; The Management</strong></p>
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		<title>By: stuart</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12208</link>
		<dc:creator>stuart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 04:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12208</guid>
		<description>@ Shane

&quot;They also learned plenty from 150 years of painful history on social turmoils, foreign invasion and civil wars.&quot;

The CCP&#039;S track record on open discourse of the events you allude to suggest that they &#039;learned&#039; only punitive measures, revisionism, obfuscation, and denial.  

&quot;Chinese have a lot of daunting tasks in hand at the monent, we prefer to get important things done without getting distracted by one bad event.&quot;

Aside from the fact that &#039;daunting tasks&#039; are going to be confronting China for as long as anyone can foresee, there would be fewer distractions if she dealt with such issues in a more open and honest way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Shane</p>
<p>&#8220;They also learned plenty from 150 years of painful history on social turmoils, foreign invasion and civil wars.&#8221;</p>
<p>The CCP&#8217;S track record on open discourse of the events you allude to suggest that they &#8216;learned&#8217; only punitive measures, revisionism, obfuscation, and denial.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Chinese have a lot of daunting tasks in hand at the monent, we prefer to get important things done without getting distracted by one bad event.&#8221;</p>
<p>Aside from the fact that &#8216;daunting tasks&#8217; are going to be confronting China for as long as anyone can foresee, there would be fewer distractions if she dealt with such issues in a more open and honest way.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremiah</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12204</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremiah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 03:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12204</guid>
		<description>No conspiracy, just observation.  

Also, and this is a minor point, be careful with &quot;We Chinese,&quot; I know plenty of people in China who would disagree with your ideas about the &quot;long view,&quot; etc.  See my comment above about self-essentializing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No conspiracy, just observation.  </p>
<p>Also, and this is a minor point, be careful with &#8220;We Chinese,&#8221; I know plenty of people in China who would disagree with your ideas about the &#8220;long view,&#8221; etc.  See my comment above about self-essentializing.</p>
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		<title>By: shane9219</title>
		<link>http://granitestudio.org/2009/05/15/list/comment-page-1/#comment-12203</link>
		<dc:creator>shane9219</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 03:03:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://granitestudio.org/?p=1149#comment-12203</guid>
		<description>Jeremiah :

There is really no conspiracy theory here. Trust me. We Chinese like to take long view and achieve things in steps or in more controlled fashion.

They also learned plenty from 150 years of painful history on social turmoils, foreign invasion and civil wars.  People prefer to have strong government to provide them a secure and stable environment in which they can raise family and achieve things they are inspired to do.

Similarly, people in the West got their own inspiration for liberty and freedom from centuries of fighting with various monarch rules.

End of my comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremiah :</p>
<p>There is really no conspiracy theory here. Trust me. We Chinese like to take long view and achieve things in steps or in more controlled fashion.</p>
<p>They also learned plenty from 150 years of painful history on social turmoils, foreign invasion and civil wars.  People prefer to have strong government to provide them a secure and stable environment in which they can raise family and achieve things they are inspired to do.</p>
<p>Similarly, people in the West got their own inspiration for liberty and freedom from centuries of fighting with various monarch rules.</p>
<p>End of my comment.</p>
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