(A Guest post by Yajun)
Over the last four days, CCTV has had comprehensive coverage of the massive earthquake which struck Japan last week. Despite the ongoing NPC and CPPCC meetings China, CCTV still filled more than half of its morning news time with the latest information from Japan.
Chinese leaders and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs expressed China’s sympathy to its neighbor immediately after the earthquake, and a Chinese rescue team arrived in the disaster zone over the weekend to assist their Japanese counterparts in the relief and rescue efforts.
It seems that Chinese government has decided to put historic conflict and recent territorial disputes aside for a time, show its humanity, and return the favor of Japan’s help during the Wenchuan earthquake three years ago.
However, China’s public opinion doesn’t always match the government’s magnanimity, and there is a debate, online and off, about how China should react to the news of Japan’s disaster. There are those who say Japan got what it deserved and cite the atrocities committed against China in World War II, and saw the earthquake as something to be celebrated, but most people feel that at this moment of great tragedy, we should put history aside and reach out to the Japanese people.
Even though the anti-Japanese opinion often makes the loudest noise online and the best story (as in the demonstrations against Japan in 2005) I am glad to see most people taking a different and more compassionate view. But I am also not surprised that this debate occurs in China today, we have such complicated feelings and opinions regarding Japan. Sometimes, these opinions are even totally contradictory. Japanese people could be ruthless killers, twisted psychos or extremely polite people who value efficiency, discipline, and creativity.
Many Chinese people first learn about Japan from “patriotic” education in elementary schools. I remember when I was a kid, “resist Japan” movies were part of the school curriculum. In those black and white movies produced 30 or 40 years ago, Japanese soldiers were always described as short, cunning and ruthless people. They were not portrayed as human, but as aliens or killing machines.
Chapters and chapters of history text books provide detailed information about the pain and disastrous consequences that Japanese invasions inflicted on the Chinese people. Museums display exhibits showing how Japanese troops used Chinese civilians for grotesque and cruel bio-medical “research.”
Despite the official line, there are a range of opinions among Chinese, some of which break down along geographic lines. The grandparents of my colleague from Changchun, part of ‘Manchukuo’ during the war, think Japanese soldiers were much better and more disciplined than KMT soldiers. When Changchun was occupied by Japan, ordinary people felt that life was orderly and safe, but after the war, KMT soldiers brought looting and corruption. Contrast this with Nanjing, where many people had their family members brutally killed or raped during the infamous Nanjing Massacre. In places like this, old hatreds run deep.
It is hard for many foreigners to understand why China’s resentment towards Japan is still so strong after seven decades. If one compares the Sino-Japanese relationship today with, say, Germany and France, it seems that narrow minds are the only explanation for lingering Chinese resentment.
But of course it is more complicated than that. Imagine that a single group of people is held up for public scorn and criticism, with museums and the media displaying images of cruelty and evidence of evil, and now imagine these are the only images you have of this group for most of your life. Sadly, this is fertile ground for hatred to spread.
The lack of comprehensive and open information fuels the resentment. For example, the Chinese public always hears about Japan’s Prime Minister’s visit to the Yasukuni Shrine, but Japan’s apologies to Chinese people are never reported in China. Most news coverage focuses on the flood of Japanese products into China, but no one mentioned that Japan has provided more foreign aid to China than any other country.
Fortunately, times are changing. Young people of my generation grow up with Japanese fashion, music, soap operas, and cartoons. Tokyo Love Story showed us how romantic Japanese people are. It inspired fantasies for an entire generation. Tokyo is also a Mecca of fashion for many young people.
With such a large number of ordinary Chinese using the Internet, more and more young Chinese rely on their own critical thinking and information that they find online, rather than rigid patriotic doctrine, to shape their opinion towards Japan. For example, after this earthquake, many online articles applauded how calm and well organized Japanese people are and compared the solid Japanese buildings with the shabby schools in Sichuan.
The anti-Japanese mood in China is not going to disappear soon, but I believe that in the near future we will see more and more rational thinking about the Sino-Japan relationship.
RT @GraniteStudio: Guest Post from Yajun: Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan: (A Guest post by Yajun) Over the last four… http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
RT @GraniteStudio: Guest Post from Yajun: Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan: (A Guest post by Yajun) Over the last four… http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
RT @AdamMinter: A personal perspective on a complex issue. Excellent. RT @granitestudio Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan http://bit.ly/glJL3c
V. constructive post re: Chinese views of Japan amid the current crisis. MT @GraniteStudio: Guest Post from Yajun… http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
RT @sfern: V. constructive post re: Chinese views of Japan amid the current crisis. MT @GraniteStudio: Guest Post from Yajun… http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
RT @sfern: V. constructive post re: Chinese views of Japan amid the current crisis. MT @GraniteStudio: Guest Post from Yajun… http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
RT @GraniteStudio: Guest Post from Yajun: Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan: (A Guest post by Yajun) Over the last four… http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
RT @granitestudio: Guest Post from Yajun: Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan: (A Guest post by Yajun) … http://bit.ly/eALcDQ
Is there any country other than China that still talks about WWII atrocities by Japanese or German army ? It is almost impossible for Chinese not to read or hear about that at lease once a week from media owned, supported or sponsored by the government.
Certainly World War II is remembered in many countries as one of invasion, suffering, and resistance, but there does seem to a more coordinated and concerted effort here in the PRC to use the past to make political hay in the here and now.
Thanks for your post, Yajun – it’s nice to see an optimistic post about future Sino-Japanese relations.
I’ll let her know.
I was expecting more antagonism from the Chinese commenters and was pleasantly surprised at the level of compassion and concern for the Japanese.
I lived in China (both central and southern China) for more than 6 years and only recently returned to complete a master’s degree. It bothered me that so many of my Chinese friends and acquaintances were very hostile towards the Japanese and felt resentment and anger towards people they had no direct experience with. It seemed strange that they could feel that way when my grandfather, who had suffered a back injury during the war and experienced pain from it throughout his life, didn’t carry the same anger and even formed a very close friendship with a Japanese person (close enough that she volunteered to adopt my grandparents, so that they could benefit from Japan’s health system. They graciously turned her down.).
The explanation that I found for why my friends felt the way they did was resentment of the Japanese is politically useful and is nurtured. I thought it was odd that Kou Ming Tong’s atrocities, such as the forced floods in 1938 that killed 800,000 and left millions more homeless, didn’t get the same treatment as Japanese atrocities, considering how strongly my friends felt about those. But looking at early propaganda, it seemed to make sense because the communist party drew so much legitimacy from their resistance to the Japanese invasion and continuing that resentment only helped strengthen their political position.
Even today it is still useful. Around 2005/2006, I was in Guangzhou and several colleagues were planning to protest the Japanese. I didn’t know why they were protesting at that time since they were upset over Japanese history books but those history books had been around for awhile (they had sparked controversy several years before) and nothing new had happened. I later discovered that at the same time, Japan and China were negotiating mineral and oil rights and I thought the protested might have been cultivated to place pressure on the Japanese government for concessions. It could be coincidence the protests and the negotiations occurred at the same time but the official responsible to the protests seemed unusually restrained and even helpful at times.
Sorry for the long comment, the post is very encouraging. Thanks.
I’m glad you liked it. I’ll let Yajun know.
Chinese offered great help to Japan in 1923 quake of Japan, then what they got after few years? An occupation of Northeast and war all over China which killed 30 million CHinese. If you looked at pics at the link below you guy might understand more of Chinese complex feeling.
http://www.tieku.org/362154/1.html
While feeling sorry to Japanese, I feel happy with Lockheed Martin, since at least 20 F-2 fighters were destroyed, not to mention a few whaling ships.
In case anyone was wondering what Yajun was referring to when she alluded to knee jerk nationalism…
“knee jerk nationalism”?
Nationism exists in every countries. I read similar posts on US sites of Taiwan, Singapore, S Korea and America whose citizens still rememer Pearl Harbour. Are they also educated by CCP?
While I think Chinese have more reason than Japanese to have this this nationalism, Japanese nationalism is ironically even stronger when it coming to China which it brutally occupied. One of my Japanese friend arrived or escaped to Beijing yesterday, after he had been cursed by few at Tokyo airport as traitor, for leaving for China at this moment.
Yep, remind me to thank Kenneth Tan for sharing with me his readers.
Oh, yes Rushour is everywhere and popular like Americans marines, Kenneth knows that. BTY, when will you send marines to Bahrain to crack down Jasmine Revolution there, lol!
OK Back to serious topic. On Sept 1, 1923, Japan was hit by a great quake with 130,000 died. Poverty stricken Chinese managed to donate 8000 tonnes rice and lot money and Bejing Opera actor Mei Lanfang played for charity and monks all over China prayed for 7 days. I guess Dalai lama did it too, lol!
From Sept 3th on, rumour had it in Tokyo that Koreans planned to uprise and fires all over in towns were the work done by them. 6,000 Koreans including 500 Chinese Wenzhou workers were murdered or lynched under day light in one short week, by knives, swords, axes, hooks, ropes and stones, some of them were simply threw into burning houses.
Eight years later, recovered and refreshed, Japanese took Northeast and then 1937 the half of China and killed 30 millions.
This history is not faked by CCP. It is also taught in Taiwan, maybe not in Singapore where Kenneth comes from who considered himself not as Chinese anyway. I don’t think American are special species who hate NOT the very people who killed their granddads and raped their grandma and burnt their houses down. The main reason behind this so-called generosity is US had already taken revenge by nuking them twice. Wih this two bombs, American even swollowed the fat when Japanese emporor did not utter a single word like “surrender” and “defeat” in his 815-word “Surrender Decree”.
Hookay, thanks to Ken…
Yep, these are my readers.
The main reason why what Japan did to China during the World World II are still felt & talked about was because there are groups of people in Japan, including some in considerable power & status, still continuing denying their occurance and trying to re-write history.
I lived in England on and off for 20 years and I’m not aware of any mainstream German groups defending Hitler’s actions.
That is the difference.
I’m aware of these groups, for awhile the whackos even would send me emails trying to get me to ‘change my mind’ about the ‘lies’ like the Rape of Nanking, but such groups do exist, if not in Germany, then certainly in the USA and the UK.
In any case, I think there is more to it than just the existence of a Japanese right-wing lunatic fringe.
I think you missed my point.
Of course there is more to it which was why I qualified my comment with “main reason”.
But more importantly, the fact you are not aware of extreme right wing groups in Germany confirms my point: all Germans I know (I happen to have many German friends and a number of them are coming to work in China soon) and I feel as a nation Germany accepts what Germany did, which gives victim countries the starting point to forgive. Japan as a nation does not always acknowledge its historical wrong-doings, which naturally stirs up anti-Japan sentiments. I watch this yo-yo process in my own mother, who eye-witnessed Japanese killing: how can you expect them to forgive & forget when their sufferings are frequently denied by the nation which inflicted those sufferings?
Having said that, I’m friendly with a number of Japanese friends and my mum has no problem with that. I think you will find most Chinese don’t have a problem building private personal relationships with Japanese, visiting Japan or studying there, especially the younger ones. It is Japan as a nation and what its elected politicians & other influential people get up to that drives the anti-Japan sentiments in China.
Leaving aside the “I have XXXXX friends” defense…
You’re confusing empathy for the contemporary suffering of innocent people with forgiving the horrifying acts of their ancestors. Yajun didn’t once talk about forgiveness, rather she was discussing the fact that many Chinese today seem to be able to separate the atrocities of the past and feel sympathy for the victims of the earthquake. This is not the same as “forgiveness.”
I have Japanese/German friends is very relevant in this discussion: someone with hatred for a nation will not be able to form genuine friendship with people of that nation.
You need to make a distinction between Japan as a nation and Japanese individuals. The author was mixing the two in her post so naturally the responses came back the same. My mother & I have full sympathy for the sufferings of those individual Japanese. But as a nation, Japan needs to do what Germany did, to sincerely feel sorry for what it did to China during the World War II. It is wrong for people not to feel sorry for the Japanese right now but sometimes it is difficult for some to separate the innocent from those guilty of denial, which is only human nature. I assume you know the Chinese phrase: 爱屋及乌, and this is the opposite side of the same coin.
“Forgiveness”: there is nothing related to the World War II for Chinese to forgive the current generation of Japanese for – it was their ancestors who did the killing. But for those young, and the old for that matter, who refuse to acknowledge the atrocities, it “will only bring further resentment” as Fred accurately pointed out, which was what I meant when I said I watched the yo-yo process in my mother: as soon as or before my mother stopped repeating what Japanese did in her village, someone somewhere in Japan did something to prompt her again.
As for “subtle” points being lost, can I please pointing out the fact the author didn’t simply stop at reporting the different Chinese reactions towards the Japanese tragedy but she then accused Chinese government single-handedly stirring up anti-Japanese sentiment? This was what I was objecting too, and I assume many others too.
This is a complex & emotive subject and diverse responses are to be expected.
I don’t completely buy the “anti-Japanese feeling is primarily driven by Japanese denial of WWII atrocities” line because other groups of people have had their grievances denied and have not responded in the same way. Japanese denial maybe part of it (relatively small) but it’s probably not the main factor. Take for example African Americans, they suffered enormous pain and suffering under slavery and after slavery ended and that suffering has historically been ignored or down played. That pain isn’t simply a part of the remote past either, massacres like the one that took place in Rosewood, Florida (the whole town was destroyed and most of the residents killed, survivors actually had a case against the state of Florida in the 1990s) occurred into at least 1920s, lynchings occurred up into the 1960s (A bit of trivia: the last slave died 1979, not exactly that long ago.). Since the end of slavery, there have been numerous textbooks and movies that either ignore the suffering of African Americans or diminish it significantly. If you have ever seen the movie Gone with the Wind, the slaves don’t really seem to mind being slaves. Even today there are movements, some by state governments, to memorialize that era in a way that minimalizes the repulsiveness of slavery. If you ask a random African American, do you think that southern white people are bad or if they feel angry at them, odds are you are going to hear no (unless they have a direct grievance). My point is that just because a group of people suffer great pain and that pain is denied (African Americans aren’t the only ones, Singapore was pretty heavily abused by the Japanese and recieved roughly the same apology and treatment of their history but don’t seem to have the same emotions as Mainland Chinese), it doesn’t necessarily turn into the same type of group antagonism you find in China.
Of course, you find other groups that are angry over events that happened 500 or 1000 years ago but that sort of sustained anger takes a lot of effort and I think that effort is the deciding factor. It takes alot of work to teach people about events that didn’t happen to any one living and then make them emotionally invested enough in the events to have a strong feeling about them. In those cases, the anger became a defining characteristic of the groups and they have a hard time letting it go.
Side note: Germany is a special case because of policies and laws that were put into place to remove Nazism from Germany after WWII. Germany didn’t simply feel guilt over what the nation had done, laws imposed by the Allied forces actually directed how history could be taught, how Nazi imagery could be used, etc. A different set of laws were put into place in Japan that separated Shinto-ism from the state, changed the role of the emperor, broke up the Zaibatsu, restrained the development of an army, and a bunch more.
“It is hard for many foreigners to understand why China’s resentment towards Japan is still so strong after seven decades.”
Not really, we know why, as you say, “it seems that narrow minds are the only explanation for lingering Chinese resentment.”
And it’s no more complicated than that. Again, as you say, “Imagine that a single group of people is held up for public scorn and criticism, with museums and the media displaying images of cruelty and evidence of evil, and now imagine these are the only images you have of this group for most of your life. Sadly, this is fertile ground for hatred to spread.”
Yes, minds made ever narrower.
I think blaming anti-Japanese sentiment entirely on the government (just as ChineseinUKBackinChina justifying it with the continued existence of Japanese apologists) tends to oversimplify a bit.
But I don’t blame anti-Japanese sentiment entirely on government propaganda and jingoism, thank you. Willful ignorance (i.e. a narrow mind) also has its place as many choose caricature rather than facsimile in this as in other matters.
Fair enough.
[...] from the Granite Studio has two posts looking into the the Sino-Japanese relation. The first post depicts a mixture of envy and empathy; the second post looks into the historical base for this [...]
[...] LamJottings from the Granite Studio has two posts looking into the the Sino-Japanese relation. The first post depicts a mixture of envy and empathy; the second post looks into the historical base for this [...]
Guest Post from Yajun: Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan | Jottings from the Granite Studio http://bit.ly/eA1bAR
Oh, how much am I willing to give up to be that young again…
There is so much texture in the stories of the shrine visits by the Japanese Prime Ministers, the apologies, and the ODA aids from Japan to China that you seemingly are missing. But worry not; so long as you have an inquisitive mind, you will pick it up sooner or later. Be warned: whatever Jeremiah knows, is most likely incomplete or even partially wrong.
Something that you may find interesting to discover, is the decade long legal battle by the representatives of some comfort women in the Japanese courts. You know, these were some little people whose lives were ruined, and seek first and foremost a sense of moral justice, a closure in their fading lives if you will. When the decision was handed down in 2007 by the Japanese Supreme Court, my view of the nationstate of Japan, despite my fondness of Japanese culture, cuisine and cinemas in general, was pretty much in line with Goldhagen’s view on Germans in his book Hitler’s Willing Executioners — only the nationstate of Japan had never full repented. It’s a demon inside Japan’s collective soul that they need to battle out, much like all the rest of us with our own.
Yeah, that was a horrific chapter in human history and I agree, dark periods in history require that we take them seriously and write about them carefully. Doesn’t matter if the subject is the genocide of the Native Americans, comfort women, or the Great Leap Forward…
But what’s your point? Because there were comfort women, and there are people in Japan who take umbrage with this historical memory, then it’s okay to be happy about the deaths of other innocent people?
Odd that the fenqing (and the not fen not-so-qing) are taking issue with a post which, I’d argue, puts a rather positive spin on how much more open minded and empathetic Chinese society is becoming.
Jeremiah, the reply is rather poor in quality by your standard, quite knee-jerk, I will say. Maybe it’s a feeling that your wife was under some sort of Internet attack? — you can be sure if any, none was from me.
It’s not about the comfort women in the WW2 but rather about the battle they had had in the Japanese legal system as late as in 2007 when these women were in their 80s. BTW, there was certain silver lining in the whole affair — those who represented the comfort women at a pro bono basis were some Japanese lawyers.
This is a very small part of the contemporary Sino-Japanese relationship. There are so many layers in this complex issue. It’s not that simple… If Yajun wrote a piece on her own self-awakening, instead judged how/why other Chinese feel, I would have zero issue.
Showed your previous complaint to Yajun, who generally ignores the comments, and she kind of laughed about needing to ‘learn about the legal battles of comfort women’ as if she had never heard of this before.
When asked for a further response, it was: “I wrote what I wrote. If some anonymous guy doesn’t like it, then he can suck it.”
I reckon that also probably fails the “jxie” comment quality test, and I guess we’ll both have to learn to live with that disappointment. Sorry, man.
[...] by the Japanese, according to World of Chinese’s daily listing of trending topics. A guest post at the Jottings from the Granite Studio blog tells a similar story while examining the [...]
Guest Post from Yajun: Earthquakes and Complex Feelings toward Japan | Jottings from the Granite Studio http://t.co/kapWm7v
[...] I couldn’t have said it better myself. Here in China, feelings toward Japan are complex (The feelings of Chinese people, that is), especially now with the earthquake. Rather than explain my own encounters and conversations with my Chinese friends (I’ve had a few), I’m just going to refer those interested to a blog post: http://granitestudio.org/2011/03/15/guest-post-from-yajun-earthquakes-and-complex-feelings-toward-ja…. [...]
[...] Chinese writer offers a nuanced take on the Sino-Japanese relationship after controversy erupts over Chinese reactions to the [...]
RT @granitestudio: The Sino-Japanese Relationship: (apologies to Facebook) It’s Complicated http://bit.ly/gOaX1y
[...] a “deserves them well” to be found. Not only do many voices express sympathy, however (see Yajun’s guest post on Granite Studio for background or Adam Minter’s “Schadenfreude and Sympathy in Shanghai” for the complexity), [...]
It is too general to talk about China’s love/hate relationship toward Japan. I think that most Chinese would probably respect Japanese culture and people, while hating the current Japanese government, especially the current one led by Naoto Kan.
Right. But I think even that distinction is sometimes lost on foreign (and, to be fair, some Chinese) observers who paint too generalized view of “Chinese perceptions” toward certain issues.
What the Japanese Army did to innocent Chinese is akin to what the Nazis did to the Jewish population in Europe, Did the Jews ever forgive Hilter and the Nazis? Why do you expect the Chinese to forgive the Japanese for their actions. The Japanese have yet to accept responsibility for their actions. They continue to blame the US and others for their entry into the war. Those who critize the Chinese have never lived through this degree of cruelty, and hopefully, never will.
Well, Lou clearly you feel strongly about…this. But I don’t think Yajun once mentioned anything about “forgiveness,” and I think the post was actually pointing out that Chinese society has become a more empathetic and cosmopolitan society, so it’s hard to see it as “criticism.”
I might ask you, is feeling empathy toward the sufferings of innocent people today the same as forgiving their ancestors for crimes committed last century? Or to put it another way, is it okay to celebrate the deaths of innocent people, if they come from a country whose policies toward history education you personally find abhorrent?
It is absolutly OK to feel compassion and empathy for people that are suffering,as the citizens of Japan are currently experiencing. I was trying to point out why many Chinese have a strong hate for the Japanese based on past events in history. I have spent many years in China, among all age groups. There is still a feeling of ill will against Japan among many younger people as well.
No doubt about that, but fortunately that ill will does not seem to be diluting many people’s basic sense of humanity.
[...] in Japan, see this early article by Adam Minter at Foreign Policy Magazine online as well as this guest post by Yajun on the excellent Granite Studio blog on Chinese history. ChinaSmack has also offered recent [...]
RT @granitestudio: The Sino-Japanese Relationship: (apologies to Facebook) It’s Complicated http://bit.ly/gOaX1y
I am an Israeli-American who has lived in Germany, Japan, and China and I would like to highlight an importance difference between Japan and Germany.
Although I agree the Chinese government, like all governments the world over, likes to stir up nationalism against Japan for past atrocities to divert attention away from domestic issues, it does not excuse Japan’s actions nor it’s present ones. It does not excuse the fact that generations of Japanese children are deliberately misinformed about Japan’s wartime activities. It does not excuse the mainstream racism against foreigner widely displayed and entrenched in Japanese society. A simple sorry – a slap on the wrist – is not enough.
Let’s compare that to Germany where since at least the Seventies there has been a sincere, public, and most importantly continuing realization in mainstream society that what Germany did was not acceptable. To this day German children are educated about the atrocities and the perils of the militarism that brought their country to such a juncture. That’s why they can be forgiven. Japan has not even started to take responsibility in comparison and already their are calls far and wide within Japan and elsewhere to simply sweep it under the rug. That is not acceptable and will only bring further resentment.
Fred,
All of what you said is perfectly valid. But does that mean it’s then right to celebrate the deaths of innocent Japanese in the present day tragedy? Or, perhaps more in keeping with Yajun’s post, does this mean that Chinese should not feel empathy to suffering people in Japan because of past wrongs or abhorrent present-day policies?
Looking over the comments, I worry a little seeing “China” and “Japan” in the title of a post triggers a kind of mechanical response from certain groups: Did you know about comfort women? What about Nanjing? What the Japanese did was evil. Japan never formally apologized. Oh, they did? They didn’t apologize enough, etc.
Which is fine, but has nothing to do with Yajun’s post.
Showing empathy toward present day innocent people who are suffering from tragedy is not the same thing as forgiving (or to use a much more loaded term, “apologizing”) for the atrocities and horrors committed by previous generations.
That’s a very important distinction. One, which it appears, was sadly too subtle for some readers.
Two themes common to such discussions about Chinese attitudes to the Japanese run through these comments.
The first is Chinese are entitled to hate the Japanese because of the WWII experience; more, hating (not only the Japanese but whatever country is out of favour at the moment) is not only excusable it is expected and tantamount to patriotic expression. That most rural mainland Chinese passively and many common urban citizens actively co-operated with the Japanese is not admitted either by popular culture or historical monographs by Chinese authors.
“It is too general to talk about China’s love/hate relationship toward Japan” and “that distinction is sometimes lost on foreign (and, to be fair, some Chinese) observers who paint too generalized view of ‘Chinese perceptions’ toward certain issues” are typical of the second theme, that the supposed complexity cannot be broken down or easily understood but just ragged about. But, Chinese do exhibit a surprising unanimity of opinion. To prove that point and evidence this second theme, just ask a group of Chinese (a classroom of adult students for example) to quickly jot down their immediate impressions of each of these words in short succession: First “China”, and after about 30 seconds “Japan”, followed likewise by “USA”, and last “Germany”. Look at the unanimity of results; some of you can already anticipate what they’ll write. I haven’t found any difference in these prejudices from Taiwan of 30 years ago to mainland China today.
You should ask a wider audience. My nephew (he is mainland Chinese, 10 years old) would answer as follows:
USA- Cheese
Japan- AE86 (car from Initial D) or Ultraman
Germany- BMW
China- That’s where his mom and school are.
I think the younger the group you ask, the greater the diversity in answers.
Your problem is you put all blame squarely on China. As if when the Chinese people start letting go and loving Japan unconditionally, the Japanese society will suddenly rid of the sense of denial about the comfort woman, Naking massacre, move the war criminals out of the Yasukuni Shrine (Hitler worshipped in the Reichstag, what a sight that would be) and initiate a coordinated, systematic review of what it did during the WWII.
And actually, the Chinese did let it go, in the 1980s, when an entire country was fascinated by Japanese TV shows and pop culture. Historians call that period a honeymoon between China and Japan.
But did the Japanese in the 1980s own up to their atrocities? No.
But anyway, if only the Chinese could forget about all that unpleasant stuff like they did in the 1980s, the world would be perfect. If you ever tried to talk to the Chinese, especially the young, you’ll hear so many of them saying “I can let it go, but Japan needs to own up to what it did.”
It would be nice that both sides do what they should do simultaneously, but what you advocate is China needs to do all the work.
Once again and typically, “keisat” uses one of the three popular excuses to counter any criticism of China:
1) 唉﹐人太多﹐沒辦法。
2) 中國很窮﹐人民沒錢。
3) (and as in this instance, “If you ever tried to talk to the Chinese, especially the young”) 你們外國人不了解。
You, keisat, are clueless.
[In the interest of space and the sanity of any serious readers, I've combined several comments from this dude into one uber-comment - Ed.]
In the 1980s the ties between China and Japan, both on a state level and between the peoples, were very good. It’s especially surprising that when people talk about how the Chinese government fans anti-Japanese sentiments they forget to mention the 1980s, because then you’d have a sharp contrast and further evidence to show that the Chinese government, after 1989, tended to create an external enemy out of Japan.
Of course that doesn’t negate the genuine resentment of WWII victims.
But this also shows that at least on a civilian level, China and Japan have the ability to get along well when only history is concerned. As for those current stuff like the oil fields and Diaoyu, that’s another story.
And sir, your logic is also “typical”:
When there’s a conflict between China and anybody else, blame the Chinese. If you cannot see that nobody can help.
And sir, your logic is also “typical”: When there’s a conflict between China and anybody else, blame the Chinese. If you cannot see that nobody can help.
Didn’t mention the huge population. Didn’t mention money or poverty. And you avoided talking about what Japan should do, again. What do you think Japan should do, given how you’re invested in this and you already talked about how bad the Chinese are?
I’m glad I now have a clue not to engage your logic again.
I’m glad you realized it it’s time to stop engaging him, sat.
You focused on the finer points, and he focused on generalizing everything. You talked about Japan and China and his first response is “this is typical with any criticism of China”
When that happens, it’s time to let go.
Some people comment because of things other than drawing out the details of the issue at hand.
[...] 흉하기도 하면서 또 인간적이였다. 일본이란 나라에 대해 느끼는 감정이 복잡하지만 [...]
[...] excellent post, this one entitled, “The Sino-Japanese Relationship: (apologies to Facebook) It’s Complicated.” It’s a must [...]
No, I think Yajun does seem to imply that Chinese people only dislike Japan because of government propaganda. “Other Chinese people are brainwashed. I’m rational and reasonable. That makes me special~”
And by that, she also makes it seem that there is no legitimate reason to dislike Japan. “If only they found out the ‘truth’ about Japan…”
Obviously, the current tragedy in Japan is awful. And it’s disgusting to applaud it. But then to flip it entirely around and say that people are completely wrong in their dislike of Japan? And that only “narrow minds” would do so? Come on. Germany educates their people about the war. It’s even illegal to deny the Holocaust. In Japan, people who deny the Nanjing Massacre are elected to public office. They become the governor of Tokyo. The ones who call the Nanjing Massacre “lies” and write that the hundreds and thousands of “comfort women” should have been “proud” to “serve” Japan? Well, they get to become Minister of Education.
The entire piece seemed subtly condescending to me, in pretty much the same way many newfound atheists write about not being Christian. “I’m not like everybody else. I’m so smart and enlightened! Look at all the other sheeple who believe in something!”
Well, all right.
“sheeple” is a funny word. I might just have to borrow that one.
I wouldn’t put quotes around the sentence: “Other Chinese people are brainwashed. I’m rational and reasonable. That makes me special” as not only does Yajun not use those words at all, but I think it rather grossly misrepresents what she’s trying to say. I don’t think she’s even saying it’s wrong to have negative feelings about Japan (hence the title of the post).
Once again, I ask: Do past wrongs or misrepresentations of history preempt present day empathy when confronted with innocent suffering? I’d say no.
The quotation marks are just to indicate how I interpreted Yajun’s words, not her actual quotes, of course. But she clearly does say that “narrow minds are the only explanation for lingering Chinese resentment” (proper quotes this time), which I think is an incredibly poor understanding of the situation. Being even broader-minded, there are many legitimate reasons for the Chinese people to dislike Japan. I personally think electing politicians who so vehemently deny the Nanjing Massacre is appalling. (Though, I don’t think many Chinese know who Shintaro Ishihara is, let alone his political views.)
However, I’d say that the number one or number two cause of resentment in China towards Japan is income disparity. You see it in other places as well, where the smaller neighbour is wealthier than the larger neighbour. Between Malaysia and Indonesia, Malaysia and the Philippines. Even amongst wealthier minorities in the same country, as per Jews in Europe or Chinese in Southeast Asia. And it’s not that there are absolutely no actual, valid reasons for resentment, but I think they would all care very much less if the wealth gap weren’t so significant. South Korea hated Japan almost more than China did up until the late 90s, when Japan’s economy had slowed down and Korea was racing ahead. Perhaps it’s generational, but Koreans think much more positively of Japan now than they did in the past.
In China’s case, the difference is even more pronounced because China “won” the war, and Japan lost. Basically, Japan should not be so much better off than China, by that point. Of course, nobody wants to come out and say: “We’re jealous.” And it might not even be conceived as jealousy. But I’m almost certain that if their positions of wealth were reversed, China would not be so concerned about Japanese war crimes.
Historically, as long as it was number one, China was pretty much always good to its smaller neighbours. Well, the ones who abided by Confucian hierarchy and accepted Chinese supremacy as the “older brother,” at least.
Once again, “dislike” is one thing. Actively gloating about innocent people being tragically killed is another. I’d have to ask her, but I think Yajun was referring to the latter not the former.
One element that has been left out of this discussion is the US’ accountability for allowing this rift between Japan and many parts of Asia to occur. My understanding is that the Japanese war crime trials were hurried with many of the atrocities committed by Japanese not receiving the same attention as the holocaust in Europe. There are many possible reasons for this including a bit of Euro-centrism but it is important aspect of this discussion. The resentment for the lack of atonement for atrocities committed is not distinctly Chinese and possibly not entirely Japan’s fault.
Regardless, enjoyed reading this post. Given much of the media distortion on China these days, posts highlighting complexity of thought chips away at caricatures.
Tim,
Good points.
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Good read, but I didn’t get the “Apologies to Facebook” part.
One of Facebook’s many suggestions for ‘relationship status.’ I’m waiting for the one that simply says, “We hooked up after three tequila slammers and a total abandonment of reason and principle.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkZhAtNfcBE
9/11 happened 10 years ago, thousands of people died. But compared to the millions who died as a result of Japanese invasion, that’s relatively minor.
Of course the distance of the event is a major factor (9/11 is still fresh) and there are still threats of terrorism, but a great portion, not just a lunatic fringe, Americans and Europeans have such a negative view of Muslims it shows the Chinese are not the only ones who cannot let go.
My point above is not to distract your attention, but to point out that lingering hatred is not uniquely to the Chinese people.
Also, Jeremiah, you keep making that strawman argument. Except a minor group of people (who are not here on this blog), most Chinese and nearly all commenters here have agreed history shouldn’t stand in the way of reaching out to the innocent Japanese victims in this disaster.
Those criticizing Japan are trying to make the point that the Chinese have legitimate reasons to resent Japan, partly due to history, partly due to the prevailing sense of denial in the Japanese society and occasional provocative gestures by senior Japanese officials.
I know this article only talks about China. But there ARE things Japan needs to do too to improve ties, not only with China, but with South Korea and other Asian countries as well. And this is what often gets ignored by Westerners.
a) Jeremiah didn’t write this. I will refer your comment to the relevant department.
b) Yes, 9/11 sparked a wave of knuckleheaded hatred. Still does. Thanks for the update.
c) Great. Resent away. Feel free. Hold a resentment fiesta. Nothing in the post asked people to start loving Japan, forgiving Japan, or forgetting unpleasant stuff. Post was just happy that people were showing sympathy toward innocent victims of tragedy.
d) Point of the post: Most Chinese people aren’t letting history get in the way of reaching out to innocent Japanese victims. Glad you caught that. Can we agree this is a good thing?
e) Totally agree that resentment/healing goes both ways and requires work from all parties.
What you said to Fred is the straw man I was talking about. He had some sharp points but you answered with a straw man. Of course nobody said history should get in the way of helping the Japanese. I hope you could tackle what Fred said head-on. And since you agree with me that most Chinese people agree to help Japan, I hope you won’t use that straw man again.
Well, I referred your complaint to the relevant department, she looked over my shoulder and replied, “The guy writing all the comments? Wow…what a tool.” End quote.
As I said, if you want to hate/resent/feel anger…go ahead, man. Nobody is telling you that you can’t have your own little resentment party with green beer, funny hats, and burning flags. Knock yourself out.
Self-pity is such an ugly quality in humans. Why are you not as outraged about other “evil” tragedies inflicted on Chinese people, mostly by other Chinese. Such as, for example, Great Leap Forward, Cultural Revolution, Tiananmen. One commentor reminds us above of how Japan invaded China and killed 30million people. How about when Mao, arrogant with his own ideas, killed nearly 30m Chinese by letting them starve to death because he could not accept the fact that is kooky ideas on farming were absolute rubish
As for “forgiving” Japan, you dont need to do it. Just move on. No one likes to hear a whiner and complainer. OK, we get it, you dont like them……but to go on and on about it make you uglier than them.
Isreal is still hunting down Nazi war criminals around the world, does that make them uglier? I think the world agrees what they are doing is justified. All the Chinese are asking is an official apology. What’s wrong with that? Just because the culprit is getting away with what they did, doesn’t mean the Chinese should simply give up and ‘move on’. No, they should go on and on until they apologize. This is a matter of principle. Of course I wouldn’t ask you to understand because the Japanese never did anything that bad to you or your country. But please, don’t dismiss others lightly just because you think they are nagging, that will only make you uglier.
Let’s make a deal. I’ll ask a Chinese friend to “move on” (I’ve already moved on. My Japanese is better than y’all combined. Jodanjaneyo), and you ask one of your American “patriots” to “move on” and embrace the Muslims, rid of the ugly sentiments towards Islam and not talk about 9/11 again?
Actually you’re getting the shorter end of the stick here cuz China’s population is almost 4 times larger. Okay, I’ll help 3-4 of my Chinese friends to “move on” in exchange for one American.
How about that?
time to say help people in need
Amen to that.
It’s certainly a complicated relationship. After hearing so much about anti-Japanese feeling amongst Chinese, I was surprised to find that there is actually a lot of admiration/wannabe feeling towards Japan within China, particularly among younger Chinese. Japanese culture, fashion and even mannerisms are emulated, while Japanese brands are coveted. Maybe this inwardly causes a lot of shame and resentment – to be besotted with a country that you are supposed to loathe. In the late 1940s, both Japan and China were wrecked. Since then, Japan has developed peacefully into a society that seems to embody what China now wants to be – stable, civil, technologically advanced and with deeply ingrained Confucian values. China went through yet more turmoil in which millions died and which caused massive upheavals to the lives of everyone, only to have to start again in the 1980s. It’s odd to see the seething resentment that continues against Japan for the actions of previous generations who have now almost completely died off, while there seems to be no such resentment for the millions of lives ruined or snuffed out in the interim by the current governing body. A complicated situation indeed.
Good points. You might enjoy the companion post on the history of this fraught relationship.
It is pretty clear that bigoted attitudes in the mainland are the result of policy and education decisions to highlight the negative and scapegoat a single external enemy.
As a comparison, looking at the Near East, the Ottoman Empire committed a range of atrocities on many of their minority groups during the late 19th century. Their massacres in Bulgaria were global front page news in the 1870′s. But spending time in the region today, these old conflicts have by and large slipped away and the people interact easily, even though the Turkish government has been very unwilling to acknowldge this history. The unpleasant periods of a few decades slip away into a broader dialouge understanding of shared culture and experience. The exception is the Armenians, where the diaspora has dwelt heavily on past sufferings at the hands of the Turks as part of their group identity.*
A similar dynamic exists in Asia – the Japanese Imperial army did alot of damage to the Philippines & Burma, but those events were not exploited and built into the national mythology the way they have been in the past 20 years in the mainland.
Every country has bigots like the 粪青, but they are enabled by a educational policy that legitimizes their predjudices.
*Its worth noting that just as Chinese accounts of the war ignore widespread collaboration and various atrocities committed on their own populations by the CCP & KMT to create a simplified narrative of indignation, the Armenian construction of their history focuses on “Turks” and ignores the messy implications of how Imperial Ottoman policy was often subcontracted out to other minority groups to actually execute (ie the Kurds)
Textbooks are a part of it, but only a part. As Yajun wrote, there are a lot of deep and horrible memories of the Japanese occupation still within the living collective memory of the Chinese people. Can’t discount that either.
Problem is that the most rabidly anti-Japanese people are two generations removed from the actual experience. 70 year olds in Nanjing are less anti-Japanese than some punk 20 year old undergrad in Shanghai.
“Living collective memory” is a bit to volkish and convenient. Different people “remember” different things, and often under the guidance of education, and their memories often have little to do with reality.
There are plenty of peasants who have vivid memories of nearly starving to death during Mao’s various stupid policies, but they choose to remember him as the liberator and author of land reform.
Similar issues exist in US history as well – the way that the popular memory of Reconstruction has been distorted by stuff like Gone with the Wind is one of many examples.
As those American billboards used to say, “No one’s born a bigot” – you need 12 years of “patriotic education” to become one.
Jeremiah,
This is a well-thought out and well-written post, Yajun is a fantastic writer who is a master of nuance. I shared this with my Seminar at St. Olaf College while we were discussing the earthquake. Needless to say, most of the other students were also impressed and it inevitabley spurred a conversation in the history of the subject as well. It was refreshing to take a new look at this topic from a different perspective, as well as to apply it to others. After reading some of the comments, I thought I should just make a quick critique, it seems that some of your readers, or maybe the ones who like to comment, anyways, tend to make arguments out of context (especially the “narrow minds” paragraph, which is addressed in the following paragraph, but I digress), as well as comparing apples to oranges to tangerines with all of the Asia, Germany, America comparisons (I also found it particularly aggravating that these often detracted from the actual intent of the post). Either way, I found the post to be stimulating and enlightening and I always enjoy reading your blog anyway. Best.
[...] Souhaitant approfondir cela, je suis tombé sur un article dont je vous recommande la lecture, c’est en angliche, mais ça vaut vraiment la peine de le lire : The Sino-Japanese Relationship [...]
Liked the post, it was basically a (my quotes: “hey, people are using their own brains and hearts, isn’t that cool?” post). but in the comment section i would like to see yajun reply with a little more than “what a tool …. suck it.” etc the commentators who mention the hatred of Japan that lingers aren’t all tools and I actually agree with much of what keisat wrote (in the Ed. truncated post) but he was treated like an idiot for even harboring a tiny bit of resentment.
and jeremiah, dude, you are slamming those you disagree with and applauding those you don’t — how bout just letting it run its course?
Some background: I am german and when I went to school we spent half the year EVERY YEAR talking about WWII and how Germans really really really f’d up. My generation did not sing the national anthem and if you asked most Germans my age (30something) if they were proud to be German they would say something very politically correct like “i can’t be proud of where i am born because i have no control over that, but i am happy to live here” … for real that is what young people said when I was growing up.
so in order for Chinese to be happy, maybe Japanese would have to have at least one generation (removed from the perps) that basically carried the shame. That’s what my age group did, because the old folks could not face what they did.
nice post though, need that optimism
Glad you liked the post.